The People’s Joker – Interview with Film Director / Co-Writer Vera Drew

The People's Joker is streaming on MUBI and is available on VOD and digital.

Listen here. The following transcript has been edited and condensed for clarity:

I'm Sofia Sheehan with Borrowing Tape. I'm here today with Vera Drew, the director of The People's Joker. Congrats on the movie. It's hilarious.

Thank you so much. It's so nice to meet you, and thanks for having me on.

The movie's so unique; when did you decide to marry the idea of a parody movie with a semi-autobiographical coming-of-age story?

It was an idea that happened all at once. I had been making this kind of experimental film that was just taking footage from different Batman and Joker stuff and putting it together; basically just a shitpost. As I was doing that, this idea surfaced of what if I just make an actual movie, take my story, and just tell it using Batman characters. It came also just out of this memory resurfacing of going and seeing Batman Forever when I was a kid and having it be this queer awakening for me. There was something about seeing that movie that really — I don't know — at a very young age, helped me figure out: Oh, okay, I don't think I'm like the other boys. Yeah, the idea just kind of hit it once like a lightning bolt.

You dedicate the movie to Joel Schumacher; obviously, he's the director of Batman Forever. What is it about his movie that stands out? A lot of people would choose the Nolan movies or maybe the new Matt Reeves or the Joker movies. What is it about him that is just so amazing to you?

Well, I think those two Batman movies he made they're just so fun. To me, they're closer to what the experience of reading a comic book is like when you're a kid. They're so colorful and operatic. They're silly and very campy, but they still demand that you take them seriously. I think that's what's honestly missing from a lot of superhero movies. I think, generally speaking, they demand that you take them seriously, but they're not fun. They don't feel like a movie where it's like having fun. So, I think that's really what stands out for those. And,  just his entire filmmaking career is just fascinating. I feel like —especially movies like Falling Down, Lost Boys, and The Incredible Shrinking Woman — he takes such big risks and no one of his movies is the same. Especially something like Incredible Shrinking Woman is just such a ridiculous, colorful movie, and Lily Tomlin is so great in it. I love the way he writes female characters. It's just nobody was quite like Joel. I'm heartbroken that he didn't get to see this movie, but I'm very happy to make something that is definitely a tribute to him.

Yeah, it's so great. You can definitely see the references there, and obviously, with DC movies. But your movie also has a lot of references from a lot of really great 90s movies. There's a little bit of Goodfellas in there. What are some other filmmakers or movies that inspired The People's Joker?

Definitely Goodfellas, definitely that kind of 90s Scorsese vibe was just something that I really wanted for the movie because I feel Goodfellas, Casino, and Wolf of Wall Street, there are these like movies that's telling one story that takes place over a lifetime and that's kind of what The People's Joker was. Another movie that was a big influence was Natural Born Killers by Oliver Stone. I remember seeing that movie when I was way too young. I was maybe 12 or 13, and it blew my mind just cause I had never seen a movie that had that much mixed media in it. It kind of was this precedent as we were making The People's Joker, uh, because I got to point, anytime I was like, Oh, is this too many? Are we mixing live action with animation too much here, or archival footage, or whatever? I could use Natural Born Killers as a Rosetta Stone for what you can get away with in that space because every single shot in that movie, it'll be 35-millimeter film, and then it'll cut to a VHS, and then it'll cut to 16-millimeter film and then, an anime clip, it's so just all over the place in this way that it's still telling this cohesive story. Also, I think on a script level, I was really inspired by Hedwig and the Angry Inch. It's, it's one of my favorite queer movies of all time. It started as a one-person show, but the movie itself feels like a one-person show, even though it's an adaptation, and it's one of my favorite movies of all time. Getting to see this really personal story that is also set in this backdrop of politics and pop culture, and that was really something I think I was really inspired by as we [Bri LeRose] were particularly writing it.

Right. Something you mentioned with Natural Born Killers, something that I think the movie really benefits from, is this collaborative energy that it has that came obviously through all the crowdsourcing that was needed to finish it. You've worked as an editor on TV shows with obviously a bigger budget. How was it like going into this, where your movie relied on crowdsourcing, and it made such a unique story and unique storytelling devices?

I mean, in so many ways, there's something so much more freeing about getting to work the way I did on The People's Joker because I was so used to getting notes from TV networks and bosses that I was working for. And so, I actually had to keep reminding myself that I was in charge because there were so many times where I'd put something in there. I'd be like, "Can we get away with this?" But, I'd be like, yeah, I guess. It just comes down to: do I want to? I think all the difference because there were so many, I had so many collaborators on this from with so many different coming from so many different aesthetics, and like, 2D animators, and low poly 3D modelers, and the guy who made our Joker's apartment in the movie, Paul McBride, he just makes 3D sets, I think just as a hobby. I think now, he's trying to do more film. But, it was this opportunity to just kind of go, here are all these talented people and not micromanage them., I'd come to them with my ideas, but see what they come up with. It was very collaborative in that way. And that was fun, because it's not how we're told filmmaking is supposed to be like, especially in film school. It's very much coming from this auteur perspective of the director really micromanaging. I got to learn in the process of working on this that the director is the gentle hand that guides the process and finds that cohesive vision by really amplifying other artists and allowing them to lean into their strengths. And yeah, it was it was it was a really cool learning experience and just very gratifying on an artistic soul level.

Right, and because it was such an interesting shoot, how long was it from start to finish, obviously starting and stopping? What was that process like?

Well, the actual live-action shoot for the movie was only five days, which is crazy. And really, the only reason we were able to do that was because I had storyboarded the entire thing and come up with an animatic ahead of time, which is just a moving storyboard, basically. The movie was kind of already shot before we got to set. So we were able to work really fast, but then the actual process of finishing it and getting all the other disparate elements in there was another two years getting it ready for our premiere. After our premiere, even at TIFF in 2022, I still worked on it for another year and a half. I polished it a lot and rescored a lot of it because the original cut of the movie had a lot of music in it that I was never gonna be able to get the rights to. So it really all in, it feels like it was a four-year process just because I started working on it in April of 2020, and we premiered theatrically in April 2024. So yeah, hopefully, the next one doesn't take as long.

Yeah, hopefully. Another thing that was really that I really loved about this movie was that it made me think back on all the superhero movies that I've loved growing up. And how so many of these movies have kind of trans-identity discourse in them that maybe I see when I was growing up, and I go, Oh, that's interesting. That was always there. And I think you bring it to the surface. Why do you think so many people ignore those aspects of these kinds of movies, because it's really embedded?

Yeah, I mean, I think it speaks to the effectiveness of the genre. As I think that what was appealing to me about it was I could use this space to tell a very specific queer story and really lean on the genre while being really honest. Just because, yeah, all of those themes are already really embedded in there, and I think they're missing on some level from the modern superhero movies, like the Marvel stuff and all of that. There's obviously a weird subtext to a lot of it. To me, it's like when you're talking about characters that have these dual identities or multiple identities, and are also unpacking a lot of trauma. That, to me the thing that's so fascinating about Batman Forever, and also, the run of Batman comics that were coming out when I was like 13 or 14,  in 2023 and 2024, it was all Batman just confronting his trauma and the fact that he literally had accidentally killed a Robin and that he had created this big chosen family around him with Barbara and Dick and Tim. And, it was just, it's so queer. It's just so queer.  If you take it one step further, you just make these characters gay. It just suddenly works and makes sense. So I don't know. Hopefully, we get to see more of that kind of literal queer representation in these movies going forward.

Is analyzing or being part of that train of analyzing a Marvel DC something that interests you further as a filmmaker, or do you think these four years are it, and in another stage?

It's so interesting because if I went back in time and told myself in 2019 that my first movie was going to be a comic book movie, I probably wouldn't believe it. I've always loved comic books, and I like a lot of comic book movies, but I never really had aspirations for that. I think it's a space that I would definitely work in again if a story was presented to me that felt like one I wanted to tell. I definitely don't think I'll ever want to work for DC or Marvel, though. I also just don't think they would want to work with me, as the more accurate statement. I think the bridge with DC, especially, is burnt, but we'll see what happens. I definitely want to keep working in genre spaces, so I think whatever I do next will probably be more of a horror movie space.

And, speaking of that influence of DC, I have to congratulate you again because you got the Breakthrough Award at the Gotham Independent Film Awards. You made a lot of headlines because, in your speech, you talked about Nicole Kidman's impact on you. I have to ask: did you get to speak to her after the speech? Are there any other Kidman movies that really impacted you, like Batman Forever?

I didn't get the chance to talk to her afterwards, and it kind of breaks my heart. I mean, it still is the highlight of my career is that I made her laugh, that getting to watch back the footage and like seeing it cut to her after I shout her out was just like, oh my God, I can't believe this is my life. So, hopefully, our paths cross someday. I sent her a really nice note that next day that I hope she read. And yeah, I mean, she's my favorite actor. She's just phenomenal. I really love Eyes Wide Shut. It's probably my favorite role that she's had. Just cause, I don't know. She's in her own movie, in the best way possible in that film. It's why I think it's like Kubrick's best movie, too. There's like five different movies happening at once, all weaving in and out of each other. She's just fantastic in that, and I watch that movie every Christmas. It's like the only Christmas movie I enjoy. She's phenomenal. I can't wait to see Baby Girl. I'm probably gonna see that at the day after Christmas just cause she's, I've heard nothing but great things in it. I hope I get to work with her someday because I think for an actor like her who's been around as long as she has, and has been in such big stuff — she still takes crazy cool chances, and that's exactly the kind of people I wanna work with.

Oh, yeah. I mean, the double feature for Christmas of Eyes Wide Shut and then Baby Girl is an image of an artist. Just to close it now, I'd love to know your advice for any indie filmmakers who want to make their first feature.

Well, I think it's this double-threaded thing of what you're doing is going to be very hard, but it's possible. I think making a movie — we're not curing cancer or solving world hunger when we're making it, but it is one of the hardest things just on [an] actual practical level, you can do is make a film, especially your first film. Just going into it, knowing you're going to learn how to do this as you're doing it. Also, just in general, not giving up hope. I think we live in this time right now where people are really cynical about the future of cinema, and it is hard to break in right now, into mainstream spaces. It is. I'm not going to lie, but I think the mainstream is kind of dying. To me, the future is indie. The future is people making movies regionally, in places like Chicago and fucking Little Rock, Arkansas. So yeah, I think just keep at it and surround yourself with people who say yes, and want to help you accomplish that vision, and aren't cynical.

Well, great advice, and thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. I really enjoyed the movie.

Oh, thank you. I'm so glad you did. Thank you so much for talking to me. This was great.

Read our review of The People's Joker

The People's Joker is streaming on MUBI and is available on VOD and digital.