Cactus Pears – Interview with Writer/Director Rohan Kanawade

Hello everyone, I am Shaurya Thapa of Borrowing Tape, and today I'm joined by director Rohan Kanawade, who made the tender, emotional, and wholesome Indian Kuwait drama Cactus Pears, or Sabar Bonda, as it's called in the film's original language, Marathi. Now, Cactus Pears was a big hit in the Film Festival circuit. It won at Sundance last year, picked up two awards at London's South by Southwest festival, and got a great response back home in India. And now it's finally out in UK cinemas. Welcome to the podcast, Rohan, and congratulations for the global rollout of Cactus Pears.

Thank you. Thank you so much.

Sabar Bonda ('Cactus Pears') is the story of a man called Anand who works in the city but returns to his village for the funeral of his father. And we see that his relatives are nosy about his personal life. They want him to marry a nice girl and settle down, but Anand is closeted, and he harbors feelings for his childhood friend, whom he meets after years in the village. Now that seems like a very relatable and universal scenario for any queer person, hiding themselves from the family but also chasing a secret romance. How did the inspiration for this film come about, and how personal is this story for you?

See, first of all, I don't think Anand is closeted because his parents know. And for me, that was more important: I don't want acceptance from the world or society because I'm not seeking acceptance from them; I have accepted myself. I never even had to accept myself. This is how I am. It's as simple as that. For me, my parents knowing about me was more important. In that sense, I don't think that even Anand is closeted. His immediate parents, they know about it. That's how it is.

In my life, my parents knew. When my father passed away in 2016, I had to go to the ancestral village because all our relatives stay there and because the relatives couldn't or cannot, not everyone can come to the city to be part of this ritual. That's why my mom decided we'd go there so that everyone could be part of it. And as I said, my parents knew about it, but extended family didn't know about my sexuality. So for them, it became important that they help me get married. They weren't bad people. They just didn't know about it, and that's why they were trying their best. That time was not something where—even though I was facing that pressure of marriage—it was not the time to come out and do those things which we usually see in films, [where] the drama happens. That drama would have happened because I wasn’t sure if I came out to them at this moment, how they would react. If they didn't react positively, it would become a big problem because my mom needed their support at that time; just like I lost my father, she lost her partner, and she really needed those relatives at that moment. If I had come out to them and they reacted negatively, then the bond between my mom and them would have been problematic. I didn't want those things to happen, and that is why I thought I would bear this pressure, and it was just a matter of 10 days. I'll just go back to Mumbai, and then it's done. So that's what I did.

You don't always have to stand and start educating people because that's not how it works in real life all the time. You have to sometimes understand what the situation is, and then think about it rationally. At that time, that's what I thought: that's the best way to handle the situation. Just go back to Mumbai after everything is over. It was claustrophobic that everyone was coming to meet me, and they just had this one question. I even felt it almost on my tongue that I should say it now, but I had to control [it]. Because of that, I was constantly seeking escape from that place, from that house. And that's when I had this thought: what if I had a friend in this village who would have known about me? I would have just sneaked out with him for a while and stayed away from the pressure.

And in the film, by using this idea, I can change this narrative for the character in the film, which was intriguing to me, and that is why films are interesting: they give you a chance to recreate things that might not happen or that you might not experience. I want to tell this story and make this journey a little different for the film's central character. The intriguing thought was that queer stories usually end in tragedy. Here, it starts with tragedy and moves toward an old friend coming into this character's life, and a bond develops between them and love blossoms. Because we usually associate this grieving period with sadness, depicting burgeoning love between these two characters, I can make a tender, sweet, warm portrait of this. Those were the interesting thoughts for me when I got this idea, and I started really thinking about the film from that point.

As you mentioned, your movie does not just reduce the queer experience to these dramatic coming-out speeches where everything is so scripted, and it did not resort to trauma porn either, because I'm not saying all Indian queer films are like that; just growing up watching a lot of Indian gay dramas or TV shows, it just made me more scared that, oh, if I come out like this, your parents might cut you off, they might kill you, like very extreme.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

What has been your relationship like with queer cinema in India? How did you try to do your own thing with Cactus Pears?

Yeah, same thing. Most cinema depicted that. I don't remember films that depicted, "Oh, it's okay," or where parents are completely okay with it. I don't remember that many films in the past depicting something like this. The problem is, this isn't only cinema; it's also everywhere else. Even when you see interviews where people only talk about struggling, which is true. I know. We know that there is struggle for some people, some queer individuals, or many. But there are also these people who never faced that struggle, or who experience positiveness. And then if you're not showing that aspect, as you said, you were scared. Even I was scared because the only coming-out stories I heard were all tragic; I was even scared to come out to my parents. It took a lot of courage to really talk to them. Even though I knew my father was understanding because I've known him since childhood and he's supported me. In the film, you get to know how Anand's parents got married. That is actually the story of how my parents got married. So I knew my father was always that kind of person who made decisions rationally, but I was still scared because all the stories were the same.

That is when I thought we were only seeing one side of this because I also have so many friends who are now in their late 60s, but when they were young, their parents accepted them, so you can imagine the time, and they found partners even then. When are we going to see this side? And unless we show this side, some kids are struggling. You are thinking, " Oh, I will never come out to my parents.” At least they will get that courage. No, let me take that chance. Maybe my parents will also understand. Sometimes it's also that you have parents waiting for you to speak to them, so that happens too. That was important for me. This was my experience: how my parents accepted me immediately, and all the positivity and love I experienced. I got a partner. We've been together for 12 years. These are my lived-in experiences. It was important for me to portray my lived-in experience to craft a film that we haven't seen before. If I am also making the films that other filmmakers are making, then why am I making those films? Then where is my point of view, or where is my perspective? I have seen this film, but now I want to make my film. I want to portray my lived-in experience, not only my own. Experiences of people around me, whose stories I have heard. I wanted to portray those lived-in experiences, and then I combined them altogether and made this film. I wanted to show some hopeful side of this story, or a positive side.

A lot of this film also operates in silences. There are prolonged moments of silence. Initially, we tend to have this stereotype in our head that our film is set in a village; it'll be away from the hustle and bustle of the city. It'll be that very tranquil kind of silence. What I liked in your film, personally, is that the silences were all different types. There are silences of awkwardness as well, whether it's with his family or just reconnecting with an old lover. What was the rationale behind that? Behind these long-take scenes and silences? Are you a silent person yourself?

Yeah, if I'm alone, I am silent. Yesterday, when we were coming from Liverpool to London, my producer Neeraj and I were sitting together, and opposite us was this lady who was sitting, and she's a teacher. After some time, she started talking to us, and she was constantly talking. And Neeraj also. He was joining the conversation. And I was sitting there and just listening. I was listening. I hardly spoke. This is what it is. Sometimes, even though you're silent, you're absorbing things, and this is what I do. This is when I found some of the dialogue for my films. When people talk, they're having a conversation. That's why you're absorbing all the time. These things help you. Sometimes being silent is good; you are just absorbing things. You don't have to always talk.

As you said, there are awkward silences, or sometimes there are silences, between lovers, but they are not that kind of silence. They are meaningful silences. My friend. He used to say, the kind of relationship I want is where me and my partner are in the same room, but there's no need to talk to each other being there in the same room doing our own things. He's doing his thing. I'm doing my thing, and we have to reach that stage where, even in silence, we are together. These things are part of our life: awkward silence, or just sitting with your lover, holding hands or not. It's just sitting in the room or outside. These are part of our lives. Only in films, you don't experience silence because it's all filled with music. But in real life, silence is a part of our lives. And as I always said, I wanted to portray life on screen, and I didn't want to make the kind of films we usually watch. That is why those silences had to be part of the film, and they had to be written into the script so my actors could perform them too. So yeah, that's why I had to include them.

Not all silences are awkward. Like, they're also comfortable silences.

Exactly.

Were there any inspirations, like film inspirations or non-film inspirations, for building this world apart from your personal experience?

If you watch a good film, it will always inspire you. That's why you should watch good films to get inspired. But when you are making your own film, you have to get inspired by the world you're setting it in. At some point, I had to get inspired by the village where I'm going to shoot the film, or by the people in that region and how they live their lives. That should be your final inspiration for building your world, because if that world doesn't look authentic and looks like some other film you have seen, people will say, "Oh, this doesn't look authentic."

That is why inspiration should be different at different points. Get inspired by good films, good art, any good art. But then, when you're making/creating your own art: stay true to that world, and create that world as authentically as you can. I always say that, and I told my actors the same thing: now that you know the script, you know your character; try to find, or maybe, if you feel that, oh, this person is closer to my character, start noticing that person. Try to understand their mannerism, the way they talk, the way they behave, the way they express themselves. That will actually help you to craft your character. The films that inspired me, the filmmakers who made those films, you can always see that only those filmmakers can make that kind of film. They brought their unique life because they were inspired by the life they were living, or they had their own perspective on life. So that's what it is. Look, I had to get inspired by my own experiences and the world around me to craft a world that looks authentic on screen.

You mentioned your real-life experiences and the village you visited. I was just intrigued to know more about the filming locations of Cactus Pears. What was your experience at such locations? Because there are so many outdoor shots in the sun, the funeral is outdoors. How did you pull all of that off?

I faced the same problems any film crew faces: logistics, making things happen, and stuff like that. As you said, we had so many outdoor shots; that was a big challenge because I wanted hard, harsh, bright light in the film. And the moment we got there, it started raining. There were days it was cloudy, and we just couldn’t shoot. We had to wait.

With crowded shots, you want to make sure no one is looking into the camera, because that is a problematic thing. Because of that, we had to do so many retakes. We had those kinds of problems. Nothing in terms of what the film is depicting; we didn't have any problems for that reason, because I never told all the villagers what I was shooting here or what the actual story of the film was. Because you don't want to take any risks when you are in that village with your 100-plus crew and expensive equipment, you don't want to take those risks. I did not tell everyone what the film is all about, only those who were part of the film. The villagers who were part of the film knew what we were shooting—those logistical problems, facing nature, and actors falling a bit ill. So we had those problems. I had a big team who helped me get those crowded shots onto the film. Managing the crowd is tough, of course, but thankfully my team really helped me do that, and because of them I could do that. Of course, filmmaking isn't one person's job. When you have this kind of crowd during the 10-day ritual sequence, we had 200 people on set; handling that is tough. My team was prepared to handle that. That's how I think any film crew works.

We had to face nature. We didn't find any cactus trees in that region. At one point, we were trying to find a house with a cactus tree next to it. It took us a long time; even after we found that tree, that tree never got any fruit during that time. And we were like, how are we gonna get the fruit to shoot? Towards the end of the film, when you see the tree with the fruit, that fruit is a VFX. And when Anand is eating that fruit, I mean, I was like, I can't do VFX there. I needed real fruit when he eats it, and I needed to know how to get it. And I was not getting it. One of my friends, who's an ad filmmaker, said, "Why don't you try a food stylist?" Food stylists are the people who make food for ad films. Let's say you're making an ad for ice cream and you're shooting for a long hour. Real ice cream will melt, but this ice cream won't. It looks real. So finally I was like, OK, let me try it. And this finally, after many food stylists rejected it, saying, "No, they can't create this fruit." One person said, "I can do it." When she did, the fruit was small, and she made it into a big fruit. And I was like, “What is this?” I mean, it already looked so fake. And when I opened it, there was cake inside.  I told her before she started experimenting; I shared with her all the images, all the videos of how it looks when people open it. Juice comes out when you eat it. It is juicy. She was like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It will be exactly like [that].” And I'm like, “What is this? This is just cake inside.” And then I think we had to start looking for real food. Finally, we found someone who cultivates cacti in Gujarat, which is a neighboring state to Maharashtra, and we reached out to him. He sent us the real fruit, and that's how we could finally shoot the sequence. That is what a director's job is: to solve problems. It was hard, but I think that's how it is when you're shooting any film.

I've heard directors talk about scouting for locations; you were also scouting for fruits and actresses. That's the first time I've heard that. Good job not resorting to cake or VFX, because that fruit really looked real; I wanted to eat it. I've never had a cactus pear before.

You talked about crowds, like the funeral scene with 200 people. But I want to contrast that with scenes that involve two people, two heroes in particular. It's not every day we get to see an Indian film where two men are making love in the nude outdoors, and it still does not feel pornographic. It feels like, oh, just two men making love, that's all. It's a moment of intimacy, but it also feels wholesome. How challenging or cathartic was it for you to film a scene like that outdoors?

While writing, I wrote that scene to happen away from the village, because when these guys go with their goats in the forest, that's when it happens. It was always outside the village, in the forest, so I was not really worried about how I was going to shoot that. I knew it would be away from all the people.

So that wasn't the big problem; the only big problem was the actors. Will I get actors who will be okay with it? And so my casting director, Yugandar [Deshpande], I had told him that whenever you approach actors for these roles, tell them what the story is, tell them why I want to do it, and tell them about that one new shot and it's gonna be in the film; it's not gonna go away. If you are coming for the audition, that means you are okay with that shot. And those who came for the audition were okay with it. When I found these two guys, Bhushaan [Manoj] and Suraaj [Suman], they were also completely okay with it because Yugandar had told them why I wanted this shot in the film. I never auditioned Suraaj, so Bhushaan suggested his name. I told Bhushaan why I wanted that scene in the film. It was important to show that two men can be comfortable in each other's arms without clothes, and that they can be tender with each other too, because that's what most films don't show.

In Bollywood, we only have toxic masculinity all the time. But not all men are like that. That's why it was important for me to show that poignant moment after they have had sex, because I could have shown them having sex, and most square films are also interested in showing only sex, right? But I didn't; I was more interested in showing the moment after sex because that's when you are just sleeping in your partner's arms. That's more emotional for me. That's what I wanted to show, and these two guys understood and were completely okay with it.

On shooting day, we had a very limited crew, mostly men. And even when we were shooting there, we put a cloth around them so that, even though there were men, not everyone could see them, and that's how we shot it. We did not have any intimacy coordinator on board because making love is a human thing. Why do we need an intimacy coordinator there? Because I thought that by doing all of these things, I would make it more like, "Oh, we are going to shoot something else." And for that, we need someone to literally actually tell them how to do it. I didn't want to create that kind of an environment on set. Even before we shot the scene, I never discussed that one shot with the actors, on and off. I treated it like any other shot. Only that a day before the shoot, I called the actors and asked them, "Do you want to talk at all? If you have any questions about tomorrow? So let's talk.” And they said no. If you gonna shoot the way you have told me, told us, and the way it is depicted in the storyboard, we have no problem. And that's how it was. They were on set the next day, and we shot the sequence. And then again, I wanted to show it as honestly as possible. My aim was not to sensationalize these things. That is why it had to be raw and real, and real sex is always awkward. It's not like how we see it in film, or even in porn. I didn't want to make any of those things. I wanted to show what real intimacy looks like. That's how we approached the sequence.

As you said, it didn't look that scripted. It just looked very in the moment. My final question is: ever since this film came out, it has received a lot of acclaim. Has it ever been overwhelming for you? And what is next for you now? Are you taking a break or are you already planning your next film?

It is overwhelming in a way. It's been 1 1/2 years now, and I'm still traveling with the film everywhere, like how the UK release is happening, and I'm here going every day to a new city to do Q&A's. I'm constantly on the road. So that is over, and I'm like, that's okay. I want to stop this so that I can start focusing on my next one. I'm writing my next one. I want some time now because it takes a lot of energy when you're doing the Q&A; you can't [be like], "It's okay, now I've done it so many times.” Those Q&As need to feel like I'm talking to that audience for the first time, or like they're asking me that question for the first time. I'm answering those questions for the first time. It takes a lot of energy, and it's draining, which is why I'm starting to work on my next one. I also need a little break so I can give my full focus and energy to the next one. It's overwhelming in that sense. Hopefully soon I'll have time to focus on my next one so I can start working on it.

Perfect, Rohan. Thank you for your time. Whatever you said about the Q&A thing, it might apply to people like me as well, because whatever I asked you, 100 of the journalists would have asked you that. “Oh, how personal is this one for you? And yada, yada, yada.” That was a lovely conversation.